INTERVIEWS

MARIE
While I was growing up I had to 'borrow' other people's animal friends. My parents found it difficult to understand how they had produced this daughter who hung out at the local farm or riding stables and hated wearing pretty dresses. Every day when I got home I had to change my clothes in the back porch because they 'didn't want that smell in the house'.

My husband John had grown up with dogs so within weeks of getting married our golden retriever puppy arrived on the scene. My Dad was appalled because he thought we should have spent what little money we had on something more sensible and useful! I was in heaven, at last a dog of my very own, it was especially important to me because there was no longer any money available to hang out with horses and I needed so much to be involved with animals. When she was 6mths old, Cindy and I joined the local dog club and the rest as they say is history. I was determined that my son would have the opportunity to grow up close to animals and he did! At present we share our home with four dogs and two cats but at times
we have lived with six dogs and three cats ... ah what bliss.

GILL
What motivated you to become a TTouch Practitioner and can you explain what is involved to anyone that may not have heard of TTouch please.

MARIE
I read the book and went on a couple of one day courses. To be honest I thought it was rubbish, tried it as you do with many things and discarded TTouch as being of little benefit. What I had not realised was that the person who ran these one day courses was not in any way qualified to do so. It is a great pity that the work was first introduced to the UK for Companion Animals by somebody who had great intentions but very little skill in teaching the work to others. A couple of years later, I was reluctantly dragged along by a friend to an evening TTouch demonstration. She had tried to book us tickets for Linda Tellington Jones' horse demo the week before but could only get tickets for Debby Potts' companion animal demo. I went along to keep my friend happy, very skeptical in a 'who is this woman, here we go again' frame of mind. Within 20 minutes of watching the amazing Debby Potts work and talk I was totally and I mean TOTALLY hooked!! The difference in her skill and presentation of the work was stunning so I immediately booked on to a 2 day workshop to be held later that week. Jake had been on increasing doses of steroid to control his chronic skin problem and I really felt that TTouch might help to improve things for him.

I was very stressed on the first day, in a strange place, didn't know a soul and agoraphobic panic attacks were hitting me wave on wave. Nobody batted an eyelid or made judgments. The help that both Jake and I received on  that 2 day workshop and the one to one session I booked with Debby completely changed my life. The changes in the other dogs and people on the course was equally stunning. I began to understand, not only how this work could help Jake with his physical problem but me with my agoraphobia and also the many stressed out animals with behaviour problems that I worked with  on a daily basis.
Drugs were just starting to be used in animal behaviour therapy and that did  not sit comfortably with me. I know from personal experience how difficult it  is to get drug doses and types correct for people who are stressed and also how they can make an individual feel. They have been used too long as a  'quick fix' for people and I did not want to see animals suffer the same mistakes.

TTouch is a way of working with animals, without fear or force. Emotional and physical well being are not separate, one feeds the other and can create a cycle to trap an individual (animal or person) into a downward spiral. The simple non-habitual movements of the body and groundwork exercises encourage the nervous system to let go of habitual patterns. TTouch creates the opportunity for that individual to have a different experience AND feel good about it. This is not some magically healing modality that you need special gifts to perform.
The changes occur in the nervous system of the animal itself, anybody can learn the simple movements. The other really important thing to stress is the ethos and intent of this work. Animals are our companions and friends. TTouch is NOT something that we do TO them but FOR them. We accept who that individual is 'at that moment in time' NOT who we want or expect them to be. We 'walk alongside' supporting the changes but not rushing them. This means that the animal or person changes from within and is not just controlled or coerced into new behaviour patterns. It is amazing to be a part of that journey. I can't even begin to express in words how much joy it brings me. From that little girl who was always told that she was 'too soft' on the farm animals and horses that I handled. It didn't seem to matter a jot that the animals responded to me 'it wasn't the way to do things'. Later I came across the same attitude in Dog Training ... it is very sad and I am ashamed to say that as far as Dog Training is concerned I bought into the experience of my 'elders and betters' for a while, until the sanity and common sense of that odd little girl who was 'too soft' came full circle.

I went home from that 2 day course and started to use the little that I had learned  about TTouch in my work and home life with some excellent results. The  Practitioner Programme started 18mths later but I could only afford another 2 day Workshop. Again it was awesome and made me determined to find the money to train to be a TTouch Practitioner. Six months later I set off for Sarah Fisher's home in Bath with Jake and BJ to attend my first 6 day training. My family were  astounded and expected me back as soon as the first panic attack hit. Well the panic attacks came by the barrow load but I had my unsung assistance dog and best friend Jake at my side, the wonderful support of Sarah, Debby and Anne plus an absolute determination to learn more about this work, to drive me on.
Three years and five more 6 day Trainings down the line I proudly received my certificate for Practitioner 1 status from Linda Tellington Jones, who had come to the UK to teach our qualifying Training. In September this year, it was an  awesome experience not only to assist at another Practitioner Training but to be one of Linda Tellington Jones' assisting teachers. Having completed our client and teaching Practice, the week was crowned for Toni Shelbourne and  myself by the honour of being awarded Practitioner 2 status by Linda Tellington Jones.

GILL
How important do you think it is to have some form of counselling skills with humans if you want to become a dog trainer or behaviourist?

MARIE
It is amazingly beneficial and teaches a person to have a good level of self awareness and personal integrity. I am not a great believer in  correspondence courses which claim to teach counselling skills though. It is not something that should just be experienced in the written word .. to feel and understand it needs real practice in the environment of a course alongside other people and in life. I love the Humanistic School of Counselling, it fits very well with TTouch and for part of the time I was studying both together. The parallels were truly amazing. When I went for the interview, the college was surprised that somebody in my line of work wanted to take this course. However, when I explained what it all involved the penny dropped. Our work in some way parallels those working with other dependants, like children. Animals and children have little or no control over their personal environment. In order to create change we need to work with and motivate parents or owners to make the necessary changes to the home environment and relationships. The ability to work alongside people is therefore so much more important than some trainers seem to realize. It is so helpful to know when to support, reflect, challenge and help that person to make changes, without alienating them. We have to remember who ultimately has control in the home situation ... not us .. the owner. If a trainer alienates an owner, the animal is left high and dry!

GILL
Can you give us a case study scenario in which you have found TTouch to be most beneficial?

MARIE
Oh my goodness ... there are so many but I'll give it some thought and come back to this question. OK ... I'll give you the bare bones of two. One which had the sort of outcome we all dream about and another where maybe the original intent of the owner did not match what was best for this dog.

The first one was one of my Practitioner Case studies. It involved a Burmese Mountain  Dog puppy who had a lump removed from his neck at four months old. The lump was removed successfully but initial outcome looked very bleak because nerves were  damaged in the process and he was unable to walk. I was contacted a few weeks after the operation when the vet's prognosis was to give this pup another couple of weeks to see if things improved before making a final decision about euthanasia. He could stumble along on his knees and hind feet but was unable to stand unaided. The owners were absolutely marvellous and wanted to give him every chance. He was also already having physiotherapy and hydrotherapy.

This huge puppy was carried into my home and I worked all over him, showing the  owner what to do to carry on with TTouch. We used a body wrap as well as the TTouches to try to kick start awareness of the areas of his body that his brain had shut down on. I  heard nothing for a few weeks, the deadline came and went so it seemed more appropriate to wait a while before requesting an update. A few weeks further on I had a phone call  and we met up at a friend's doggy picnic. This wonderful brave dog had grown even bigger, was standing up and slowly following the other dogs as they played. Every so  often he would go down onto his 'knees' and have a rest, then up he'd get again.

We worked a little more with him and the owners were given different TTouches and exercises to do to improve his posture and movement a little more. His Mum was so helpful with my case history providing photos of the various stages, from him on the  floor not able to move unaided to him standing bearing his own weight and playing with the other family dog. The case study and photos were published with her permission in the International TTouch Newsletter. He will probably always have unusual movement but the outcome was better than any of us could have dreamed.

The other case is one of a dog that I fostered from a Shelter after working with her at the Practitioner Training as one of my practical assessments. She had been living in a pack of GSDs which had been removed from a breeder who had let things get out of hand ... bred too many dogs and they were living in appalling conditions. She had not been handled until she was taken from that awful (but to her) safe and enclosed environment. This dog was in total shutdown - barely eating, only  moving when she had to and again there was a euthanasia question hanging over her head.

I made arrangements to bring her into my home as things were deteriorating for her at the Shelter .. she just couldn't cope with the people, other breeds and noise. I was chatting to a friend about her when I got back from the course and later that day got a phone call to say that they would be interested in adopting her if I could  help them to give her a good quality of life. They didn't feel confident to adopt her straight off but were happy to come and get to know her at my home and be guided on the best time for her to move to theirs.

We went to the Shelter together to collect her. It was absolutely pitiful to see the state she was in and I did question whether I was doing her a kindness or not. This 8mth old GSD given her immense fear had not once shown an ounce of aggression and on balance it seemed only right to give her a chance of life. I can't go into all the individual TTouches, groundwork etc. that I did, it would be like writing a book but I did many, many sessions - to start with just for 30 seconds and building as she could tolerate more. I used body wraps for very short periods to try to connect her brain to her body. I was waiting for her to show some sign of connection - that was going to be the day to move her very quickly so that she bonded with her new Mum and not me. It was absolutely essential that she did not bond for the first time with a human and then be moved on. Her new Mum made the journey to my house almost every day and just sat nearby, didn't look at her, didn't speak ... was just there for her, reading aloud or singing softly. One morning  after about 21days she suddenly started to wag her tail and squeak as I walked into the kitchen ... that was moving day.

Her new family had bought an indoor kennel which she slept in at my home, bedding food bowls etc. They brought cloths scented by other family members, practiced the TTouches so that there would be as much familiar as we could make it for the move. I also took her to their home, wanting no risk of her associating being removed again by a new person from an environment that she felt safe in.
Molly (her new name) bonded strongly to her new Mum, very, very quickly. She lives with another GSD, Dad Ron, daughter Chloe and Ron's mother. Four years down the line, she is still very wary of men, choosing to lie in her bed and stay there whenever Ron is around. He has only ever seen her mischievous and playful side on video, he may never see it in the flesh. Molly lives a quiet life, in a small village, goes up with Mum and Chloe to the horses and plays when there is no man around. They are a very  special family, prepared to accept her limitations and celebrate each of her successes. Ron has come to terms with the fact that she will tolerate him touching her but may never seek his affection or attention. Molly may never be able to share what many of our dogs share, holidays, outings etc. but she absolutely has a great quality of life with people who love and appreciate her very much.

GILL
I know you run dog training classes also, what do you feel makes a good dog training class?

MARIE
More information about the group classes in Coventry & Hinckley and the TTouch Workshops are available on my website at www.pawsnlearn.com/services or email ttouch@pawsnlearn.com   or telephone 024 76 366090.

An enthusiastic Instructor who has a non-judgmental, supportive and flexible attitude, coupled with the experience to assess and pitch training to the ability and needs of each individual family/dog unit.

Small groups where these needs can be met in a positive, fun, friendly environment so that both dogs and people gain skills and confidence through success. Structured socialising with the additional help of skilled and experienced socialising dogs.

GILL
I believe TTouch can be used on all animals, not just dogs to help them?  Can you enlighten us more on TTouch with other animals, does it work the same way?

MARIE
TTouch can be adapted to help any animal with a nervous system. In emergency situations I have used the Ear TTouches and calming body TTouches to combat shock with a reindeer and a baby lamb after an accident, as well as with dogs and cats. At the Practitioners Trainings I have had the opportunity to work with humans, horses, reptiles, chickens, pigs, sheep, rabbits, ring tailed lemurs, parrots and a porcupine.

One that really stands out for me personally was a very large python at a children's zoo. She was very lethargic and was having respiratory problems - her keeper was very worried about her because the snake was not responding very well to veterinary treatment. We worked all along her body in relays, about six of us supporting and working on her at a time, with others ready to take over when we got tired from supporting her considerable weight. After a while she opened her mouth and mucus started dripping out onto the floor. When she also became more mobile and lively we decided to put her back into her enclosure! Her keeper had started as a huge skeptic but was in tears when she saw her 'baby' brighten up and start moving again ... it was awesome to be a part of the experience of working with this magnificent snake. I think the most fun ones to work with were the ring tailed lemurs .. they were very cheeky and quite delightful.

GILL
If somebody was thinking about learning and perhaps even working in the field of dog behaviour and training, how would you recommend they start?

MARIE
A mix of academic and practical experience has to be the way to go now. There are growing opportunities for people to study for formal qualifications and this has to be good. However there is no possible replacement for hands on practical experience of being around and observing animals. Animals themselves teach us things what no book, course or seminar could hope to teach us. How can people possibly assess and digest, take in or file away the huge amount of information thrown at them on academic courses if they cannot relate it in a practical sense to the real thing.

One has to remember that much of the academic theory is based on people's interpretation of studies and experiments. They don't always get it right, there are 'fashionable' theories within the behaviour and training field. Look how 'the dominant dog' was pushed down our throats, with the best of intentions. When I queried the ongoing benefit of a 'dominance reduction programme for life' with a behaviourist approximately 14 years ago, my suggestion that it was not necessary to continue with it for the rest of  the dog's life was summarily dismissed. Who on earth was I after all to suggest that this wonderful phenomenon was not the way to go? If I had not had a great deal of practical experience of living with and observing animals I may have accepted the fashionable theory. In reality I KNEW that it was not necessary and adopted what I knew into my training practice. What is the latest fashion? The dominant dog theory is right out of the window!

My advice to anybody is to help out at local rescue centres, it is a golden opportunity to get hands on experience with dogs of different breeds and temperaments. Also spend time just observing the dogs as well as handling them. Observe at not just one Dog Training Club but as many as possible. Watch and learn from  the subtle body language and interaction of dogs and dogs/dogs and people in as many situations as possible. When they are relaxing between sessions, when they are under the spotlight doing an exercise under the trainer's watchful eye, in competition situations, at the local park. 
Who has a genuine connection and mutually respectful relationship with their dog?
Who has a dog who is a fashion item? 
Who just uses their dog as a shield?

Watch the  instructors .. what are their qualities? 
What is the atmosphere like? 
Do clients and dogs feel comfortable talking with them? 
Do they quietly build confidence by moving in and helping where necessary or do they make a struggling client stand out like a sore thumb and draw the whole group's attention to that person's mistakes in an uncomfortable way?
Do they support the client but still manage to help the whole group learn from that mistake, without causing embarrassment? 

One of my most valuable learning tools is my video camera ... you can stop, play back and pick up all those subtle things that you may have missed in real time... obviously you need to obtain permission if you want to video somebody else teaching but the local park is also a great source for taking video footage of owners and dogs. It is also good to have somebody video your interactions with people and dogs in different situations. The playback helps you to learn a great deal about yourself and how you work or interact.

Last and by no means least learn to accept people for who they are and work with them without being judgmental. In my honest opinion, the counselling units on the academic courses is not enough. Effective trainers need to know themselves well, what motivates and drives them to do this work. They need to understand that it isn't about how good they would be at handling this dog, it is about the client and their dog. Nobody seeks our help having deliberately created a problem with their dog. Sometimes they have other issues to deal with in their lives and make mistakes in understanding and carrying out a suggested retraining schedule. Sometimes the wrong dog seems to be with the wrong family ... but that is not our judgment or decision to make. Our job to take into account individual needs, motivate by setting achievable goals, lay out the options and create an environment for them to make their own choices and decisions. We do the very best that we can but the biggest single lesson that I learned was that while I could and should be empathic to clients who are struggling with situations in life beyond my control, responsibility for change in that dog/person relationship needs to stay firmly with the owner. If a trainer allows clients to rest that responsibility on their shoulders over and over again and many owners quite unconsciously try to do that, it can create the fast track to emotional burnout for that trainer or behaviourist.

GILL
Do you ever use "essences" to compliment your TTouch work, such as the Bach Flower remedies or Homeopathy, or do you not feel a need for these?

MARIE
Sometimes but since I have not studied these things in depth, always refer the client to a vet or a practitioner who works alongside a vet in this field of work.

GILL
I know you are also a Bereavement Counsellor.  Do you believe dogs can have bereavement for owners or other animals they lives with?

MARIE
Absolutely, although I have to say that most animals seem to accept death in a much more philosophical way than people do. I very occasionally work with an animal who is traumatised by the loss of a person or animal companion but mostly I work with people who are struggling with the loss of their companion animal.

GILL
How different is TTouch when done properly to somebody massaging or just petting their dog?

MARIE
One of the main differences is in intent. When we pet an animal it is almost an absent minded thing and we may also be watching TV or chatting to a friend/family member. When we TTouch, that animal has our whole attention, it is something that we are doing to help them to feel better. Also when we are petting a dog, often we are stroking the same area in the same way, over and over. When we TTouch the idea is to connect with the nervous system by using non-habitual movements. We do not TTouch the same spot over and over in the same way. There have been studies done to test the brain wave patterns of animals being touched generally, touched when the TTouch circle is not completed or when it is repeated over and over on the same spot. There are four brainwave patterns which are activated only when the TTouch circle and a quarter is completed randomly over the skin. It is therefore very different to massaging or petting.

GILL
What are your favourite dog books & authors and can you tell us why they are your favourites?

MARIE
Crumbs ... that's a difficult one. I just read anything that I can get my hands on. My current favourite for recommending to others is Linda Tellington Jones' latest book for dogs, "Getting in Touch With Your Dog". It is well written, has loads of excellent advice and pictures to show how to do the TTouches and also a companion video. "Molecules of Emotion" by Candace Pert is also worth a read.

Gary Wilkes' videos for people starting out clicker training. "Understanding Your Dog" by Michael W. Fox was one of the first 'behaviour' books that I read and found fascinating. 

"The New Knowledge of Dog Behaviour" by Clarence Pfaffenberger. 
"The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey is an excellent book for puppy owners. 
"Four Paws Five Directions" by Cheryl Schwartz is a fascinating insight into Chinese Medicine for Cats and Dogs. 

I love Angela Stockdale's booklets so down to earth and easy to follow and her video "Welcome to the Canine Chatroom". 

Turid Rugaas' little book and video "On Talking Terms with Your Dog".
A book called "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" by David Kinchin was a real eye opener for me. 
"First Steps in Counselling" by Pete Sanders is also interesting.

There are books on my shelf at the moment that I am desperately trying to find time to read, 
"Dogs that Know When Their Owners are Coming Home" by Rupert Sheldrake,
"How Dogs Learn" by Mary R Burch, "Coercion and It's Fallout" by Murray Sidman and "You Can Heal Your Life" by Louise L Hay are next on my reading list.

GILL
I often get many calls and emails on puppy play biting from frustrated and worried owners.  Do you ever recommend TTouch for such problems or for puppies in general?

MARIE
Absolutely!! I think the emotional trauma of being removed from the comfort and security of the litter and propelled into a new and strange environment is often underestimated. Dogs hold emotional tension in the point of the jaw and mouth so if the pup becomes over excited or fearful mouthing increases because working the mouth is a natural coping mechanism ... as well as a defensive behaviour.
Mouthing everything in range is also a natural way for pups to explore new things.
When there is tension in the mouth and jaw the pup's ability to control the strength of it's bite in inhibited ... so the natural exploration or defensive behaviour becomes very painful to anybody on the receiving end of it!

TTouch is an excellent way of bonding with and helping a puppy. Sometimes the nervous system knows how to tense up quickly but does not know how to relax and recover so the tension builds. We can definitely help that along with TTouch.

GILL
Earlier you stated "TTouch is NOT something that we do TO them but FOR them. We accept who that individual is 'at that moment in time' NOT who we want or expect them to be"  So many owners of dogs that are experiencing problems living in the human society always look at what they want and expect, which is often "instantly", hence why so many negatives and punishers are sadly used by inexperienced people.  If you could say something to those people now to help them see their dog at "this moment in time" and work from this point, rather than seeing "how they want or expect" the final outcome to be, so tend to start at the end rather than the beginning, what would it be?

MARIE
We seem to live in a society that blindly expects a dog to automatically know how to behave ... not only that but he/she should be 'perfect' for every hour of every day! It can be very difficult and overwhelming for an owner who's dog is disapproved of by others ... they love their dog but it is hard for them to accept the dog for who he/she is 'at that moment in time' and work forward from that point. I usually point out that "we" are not perfect but our dogs accept us as we are, flies and all. Sometimes it is just about giving the owner permission to accept that their dog is not perfect, without being judgmental or patronizing. Most owners can relate to this and are then much more open to being set a series of small, achievable goals to improve the situation.

GILL
Can you give us any tips for an owner is who is trying to teach their dog to walk on a loose leash?

MARIE
Sadly, there are still many trainers and owners who assume that dog's pull on the lead because they are 'trying to be dominant'. This can lead to all sorts of abuse in the name of training.

It is important to remind owners, especially of medium to large breeds that their dog's normal moving pace is considerably faster than human walking pace. I always start by looking at the dog's physical balance and movement. If the dog does not have a good awareness of it's body and movement, it is much more difficult for it to move more slowly than would be natural. From the dog's point of view, it is leaning into the lead to keep it's balance. TTouch bodywork and groundwork (or confidence course) improves the dog's awareness of it's body and physical balance .... it is then much more realistic to ask them to walk on a loose lead.

GILL
Earlier you stated "The Dominant Dog Theory is right out of the window" which I totally agree with, yet we still see so many people, especially on the internet, advocating it. Can you explain in your own words how you view it please?

MARIE
Dogs are opportunists .... just like people. We all have to live within certain social boundaries and it is important that we take the time to teach our dogs the social boundaries of living in our homes and in society. If we assume that they automatically know how they should behave, we are not only sadly mistaken but are abdicating responsibility and then blaming the dog for making up it's own rules based on it's experience and what it thinks are in it's best interests. Most pups learn 'dog social rules' in the litter ... they are used to certain boundaries, failure to train the social rules of our home can be very stressful for a dog ... there is no structure and they have no confidence in what is acceptable or unacceptable. Dogs are social animals and want to live in harmony with us, stress caused by constant disapproval can lead to a number of unwanted behaviours .... which sadly, are all too often labelled as 'dominant'.

A recent example is a 16 weeks old puppy who was very touch sensitive. I have no idea why, just that this pup was very frightened of physical contact. The owners were advised that this pup was 'dominant' and that they needed to 'put it in it's place and force it to accept physical contact on their terms'. There is no doubt that this puppy showed a very high level of aggression but it was based in fear, not in a desire to rule it's owners.

Dogs who are 'food aggressive' are very often labelled as 'dominant'. In my
experience, confident dogs have no reason to be defensive over food ... it is the dog who lacks confidence who is more likely to display this sort of defensive behaviour.

Dogs who jump on chairs are often labelled 'dominant'. It is a fact that cushions on chairs are more comfortable than hard floors and some dogs prefer that comfort. It doesn't mean that we should accept the dog lying on furniture if we don't want it to but let's not confuse why the dog tried to get up there in the first place. Be consistent, calm and non-threatening about moving the dog, give it a comfy cushion or bed on the floor and reward it for settling there. Then everybody will be happy.

It's difficult to explain this briefly but I hope that you can see where I am coming from. I feel it is important not to look at an undesirable behaviour as something which must be stopped because the dog is being deliberately difficult or trying to be dominant. It makes much more sense to look at how we would like the dog to behave, train them to offer that behaviour and reward them for it.

GILL
On behalf of everybody I would like to thank Marie Miller very much indeed for such a through, thought provoking and interesting interview.

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